Weight train to fail on each set?

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

Author	Comment
J00PS	Weight train to fail on each set?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 8 (09/23/03 02:37:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hi there. I've started using weights for the first time about a month ago to try and put on some muscle and mass (fat chance!). Chest and back on Mondays, biceps and triceps on Wednesdays, legs and shoulders on Fridays. I'm using dumbells for most exercises and doing 4 sets of 8 reps with them. If I start with a weight that's heavy enough so I fail on the 8th rep in my first set, I can't finish all 4 sets. Should I aim to fail on the 8th rep of every set, even if it means using a lighter weight each set? Or should I pace myself and aim to fail on the final set? Secondly, I'm using supersets, so each set is two sets working opposite muscle groups immediately after each other, then a 30 second rest. Is this a good idea? What benefit does this give? Lastly, how long do you think until I start seeing a difference in strength and size? I know it's only a month but I expected to notice something by now - all that's happened so far is that I'm getting a love handle from cutting out my cardio in order to put on some weight! Thanks guys. Jon.
killing joke	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#1	[-]
Posts: 361 (09/23/03 02:54:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	functional strength is more important than size. therefore to failure asap is the best method. there are many different ways and in over 20 years i have tried many different methods. What i do now is go in and aim to get out as quick as possible. i do every major bodypart two sets to failure and move to next bodypart. that also works cardio. im over 40 and ive read that i shouldnt do squats which suits me fine with my knees but young guys should squat. kettlebell theory is worth investigating and having a sand bag to pick up and throw around is also valuable. the nature of our activity isnt replicated by the dumbell action after all.
doormanmatt	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#2	[-]
Posts: 152 (09/23/03 04:36:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Remember if ur training for mass, it could effect your fighting weight i.e middle to light-heavy weight. Some people have difficulty upping their weight class! If I were u I would do: Throughly stretch Warm up set 10-12 reps of a moderate Then as heavy as u can go for 6-8 reps And then drop until ur using just the bar to like 2kg dumbells. By working to failure in this way, ur gains will be clear cut, toned and squared, also u will increase muscle stamina, which is also v/good for fighting! Some people train 5x5 for mass and strength, but TBH it depends on ur goals. Visit www.muscletalk.co.uk for more details on training, diet & nutrition, sports enhancement etc.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#3	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/23/03 05:48:36) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* functional strength is more important than size. therefore to failure asap is the best method. I agree with the first part of that statement, but would respectfully offer to differ on the second part. Training to failure is a good method but is it the best for strength? Olympic Weightlifters and many Powerlifters (check out Ed Coan's training) avoid training to failure. The fact that they are amongst the strongest people on the planet must mean that you can also get extremely strong (and probably stronger) by stopping your set before failure. Bodybuilders are the weight trainees that most often train to failure, yet most Olympic lifters and Powerlifters would trounce most Bodybuilders on most lifts. It is Progression that is the key to strength, regardless of training failure or not. As long as the weight on the bar goes up over time, it matters not when each set is terminated. Training to failure works because it provides a good guide to whether you are working hard enough. It's very difficult unless you have a lot of experience to tread the line between stopping just before failure and being lazy and terminating the set way too soon. For that reason Powerlifting coaches like Dick Conner will say that beginners "might as well train to failure". For futher reading about Strength Training without going to failure see: Dreschler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia Explosive Lifting for Sports by Harvey Newton Power to the People by Pavel Tsatsouline Also worth tracking down John Christy's writing about training without going to failure in back issues of Hardgainer magazine. "Muscle failure is more than unnecessary - it is counterproductive" - Pavel Tsatsouline *Quote:* I'm using supersets, so each set is two sets working opposite muscle groups immediately after each other, then a 30 second rest. Is this a good idea? What benefit does this give? Supersets will help your general conditioning and speed up your time in the gym. Not the best for strength training IMO, but fine otherwise. *Quote:* Lastly, how long do you think until I start seeing a difference in strength and size? I know it's only a month but I expected to notice something by now Give yourself at least 3 months. Any initial 'strength gain' may be misleading - it's just you getting better at each individual lift in terms of technique and neuro adaptation. (See Newton's book for more). Personally, training twice a week may be better for size gains. Work on the squat and the deadlift, throw in some presses and rows and that's about it. Good luck with your training.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#4	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/23/03 05:57:02) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	PS - ALL the advice offer by Killing Joke IMO is excellent and works. My only point is that you can gain strength effectively without going to failure.
G0DDERS	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#5	[-]
Posts: 1162 (09/23/03 06:07:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	great thread! ______________________ Some people hate other people because of their race or colour. Im not that picky. I hate everyone. Cagewarriors Website http://www.cagewarriors.com
Dr Octagon UK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#6	[-]
Posts: 1379 (09/23/03 06:23:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	training to failiure is failiure to train ________ "I didn't aspire to be a good sport- 'champion' was good enough for me". Fred Perry
killing joke	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#7	[-]
Posts: 361 (09/23/03 06:49:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	re: the failure i accept some of your points and will try and follow the linx when i get time. i do try to go as close to failure without really failing each time probably as im not interested in building more strength but keeping maintenance, burning fat and general well being. in all my readings and trials of many different methods (im still on that journey btw as things change with age), i feel for my own development strength came from the failure principle but the maintenance, which is probably more relevant over a long period then failure wasnt necessary. whatever the truth for each person, the least time spent doing it has an attraction as you get older and so any programme that has you hanging around for extra time has no value! ; )
whampyri	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#8	[-]
Posts: 582 (09/23/03 06:54:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Personally I would go for odd object lifting grip training and body weight exercises such as pressups weighted and un weighted and heaves and pull ups. I find headstand push ups to be great also dips etc. The thing is we are trying to move a person not a bar so i train with either barrels with water in or sand bags you can squat em etc. I am gettin shown some olympic lifts on weds so i will let you know what I think. I train with a competetive power lifter and he is amazing on weights but his strengh in class is not exceptional he is also 4 stone heavier than me.
zippy	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#9	[-]
Posts: 374 (09/23/03 06:59:24) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	For the fight game anaerobic and plyometric are very good. Plyometrics are used by the top athletes to gain explosive power. Plyometrics help build the fast twitch fibres in the muscle which in turn produce explosive power. When doing weights you have to decide exactly what the aim is. If you are doing plyometrics then explosive power will not be your aim in your strength training, however constantly training to failure will lead to over training and indeed less strength in the long run. The secret is to vary the weight, reps and exercise every six weeks in order that your body does not become too used to the exercise, I beleive this is called homestisis (spelt wrong). Try routines that build up muscle endurance in an anaerobic way (teaching the muscle to be more effecient in its removal of latic acid), then move onto to heavier weights with low reps (strength training) but not to failure. Then do a routine that's somewhere in between. As already said the heavy sandbag is a useful strength training device. Remember that the exercise you do breaks down the muscle, it's the rest period that builds the muscle. You should also be looking at olympic lifts which are very good for strength, but you'll have to seperate plyometrics from strength unless you construct a complex routine.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#10	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/23/03 07:12:08) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Killing Joke - agreed with ALL your points in your second post Like I said I think training to failure is a good method and it works well. (It's just not the only method nor best method for strength gains). whampyri - Great post. However J00PS is after "muscle and mass" and barbells are a proven, effective and efficient way to achieve that. I'll be curious to read what you think of Olympic lifting when you get a chance to post. *Quote:* Zippy wrote : You should also be looking at olympic lifts which are very good for strength, but you'll have to seperate plyometrics from strength unless you construct a complex routine. What's the difference between Olympic lifts and plyometrics? Aren't the C&J and Snatch plyometric in nature? Olympic lifting is as Dreshler points out, "to move effectively from an eccentric contraction to a concentric one" - which is what plyometrics are. Or not? I'm just curious about the distinction between the two and if strength training and plyo's are necessarily separate. Thanks.
zippy	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#11	[-]
Posts: 374 (09/23/03 07:58:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Olympic lifts contain strength elements as well as plyometric and are consider as Complex, which basically means the combination of plyometric and Strength. Good power and weight lifters will spend time sperating these two elements to be able to develope each of them to there maximum, then every so often will throw themselves into a complex routine to get the two elements working side by side. After this they will go for the actual olypic lift and try to work to the maximum to find the weak elements and then back to the drawing board.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#12	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/23/03 08:31:21) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks. I understand what you mean now Although I think plyometrics themselves are strength exercises and many of the olympic lifts are plyometric. For example a "Depth Jump" is very similar to the "dip n drive" in the Jerk in many respects. (as noted by Dreschler). It's probably worth mentioning that there's great debate to whether or not Plyo's are effective at all. (Many Olympic lifting champions have never practised 'separate' plyo exercises at all). And there's also the argument as to whether or not they are dangerous. Again there are many coaches that talk at length about the pitfalls including Dreschler, Leistner, Bryzcki, etc. Nice discussion. Thanks much.
TJ 1	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#13	[-]
Posts: 111 (09/23/03 08:59:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Remember that the main exercises to build mass are the power excercises (bench press, squat and dead lift). These work a number of muscle groups with each repetition and are generally accepted as the base of any good weight trainnign program to build strength. These are also the exercises that injure people so it is important to do them correctly and with good form. Other exercises using less muscle groups tend to be more useful for toning. Try to do 6 to 10 reps for each set, you need only fail on the last one or two sets. Trainning without failure is also useful although results tend to be quicker if you fail (however, risk of injury is increased). Obvioulsy, you need a good spot if you are trainning to failure and this makes all the difference. A good spot will help you move the bar very slowly but only once you no longer can. Warm up set and then increase the weights until you fail on the fourth rep and your spot helps you with the last two reps. Aim for at least 4 sets increasing the weights (the first being a low weight with ten reps to warm up) and then at least one warm down set of about ten with a lower weight. After a few months, you will know what is right for you.
zippy	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#14	[-]
Posts: 374 (09/23/03 09:00:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Plyometrics work the nervous sytem as well as the muscle, hence why you need to be careful how much you do and this is why the weight recommended for plyo work is about 5 - 10% of your body weight. Boxers and wrestlers both use plyo work to great effect. Wrestlers often use bungee cord for the "shoot" which is done very fast, this is plyometric, boxers do the same with punching use a cord as resistance. Plyo work is the only way you can work fast twitch fibres which is needed for explosive movements. You will find that a lot of the people who profess not to do Plyo work are actually doing some without realising, for instance would they always spar at a slow speed to avoid doing the plyometric, I seriously doubt it, the only difference is that they have not separated it from all the other fighting elements you need to spar effectively. You realy know your stuff nice to talk (well write anyway) to you.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#15	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/23/03 09:51:40) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TJ1 - IMHO, is bang on the money (and gets the thread back on topic!). Great post. *Quote:* TJ1 wrote: Trainning without failure is also useful although results tend to be quicker - although, again I would question how much quicker, if anything, this is. John Christy's subject's seem to thrive on his method of training within failure. Still, there's no doubt that training to failure works for building size and strength. Regarding training to failure : "Failure" can be subjective, depending on your motivation. For example if you are lifting on your own, you may reach 'failure' earlier than if a S&C coach was screaming in your ear LOL. And if you'd hit your last rep in a squat and then someone put a gun to your head and demanded you do another rep, then you probably would So, again the difficulty in stopping short of failure is having the experience to know when exactly failure is about to occur. I guess, if in doubt, then train to failure on everything bar deadlifts and olympic lifts, where fatigue compromises safety. Zippy - basically any movement done at speed is plyo Like running. I think it's difficult for any athlete to avoid all plyo training whether it's intentional or not. The argument people like Leistner, Labelle, Bryzcki etc have is whether plyo's actually make anyone more 'explosive'. This school of thought believes that athletes are born with this ability rather than produced by plyometric training. They also believe that plyos are dangerous, which even pro-plyometric coaches, like Newton, will admit to. (although the counter argument to that is to take plyo's gradually and carefully like any other exercise). Good to talk to you too and thanks for all the info J00PS - check out Alex Sargent's Weight Training for MMA article
zippy	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#16	[-]
Posts: 374 (09/23/03 10:50:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just another quick note. The muscle fibres that your born with are unique quantities of three strands, two of which can not be altered, but the third can be trained to go either way, hence why the ploymetric training in the first place, but the benefit would always depend on the genetic structure of the muscle and the percentage of the interchangable fibres, so for some plyo would be great for others not so great. Those blessed with a low interchnagable ration but have a high fast twitch ratio will need little in the way of plyometric, so in the end, as always, it depends on the individual.
J00PS	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#17	[-]
Posts: 8 (09/24/03 07:35:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks very much guys, there's some really good advice here and I definitely need all the advice I can get! Trying to distill down what you guys have said, most of you seem to agree that I should be moving from 4 sets of 8 reps to more sets and fewer reps of higher weights, with more rest between sets and a real attempt to increase the weight I'm lifting each session. Does that sound about right? Like I said, I'm a novice to this weight-training malarkey and I don't have anyone to train with which might make getting a spotter for heavy lifts hard, although I've seen a lifting machine (Smith machine?) in the corner of my gym that might allow heavy solo lifts. The aim really is to get a solid, simple way of increasing strength and mass in 3 45minute sessions a week, in a really boring commercial gym ... something so simple that I can remember it, and stick to it (quite a task!) I've heard a lot about 5x5 training. Can someone explain (really, really simply!) what this involves? Interesting that someone mentioned kettlebells as I used to train with some Systema guys and they were obsessed with them. Been dying to get some for ages but I doubt I have the space at home to really get them swinging. Needless to say, my gym hasn't even heard of them Thanks again! Jon.
J00PS	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#18	[-]
Posts: 8 (09/24/03 07:54:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh, incidentally, the Weight Training for MMA article was great! I'm going to take it into my gym tomorrow and try and figure it out. Cheers! Jon.
SFUK	Re: Weight train to fail on each set?	#19	[-]
Posts: 3173 (09/24/03 09:02:48) SFUK Staff Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	5x5 - there are a few ways to do this, some people pyramid the weight up and down during each set, with the first couple of sets being relatively easy and the 3rd set onwards going balls-out. (eg. 250-300-305-290-280lbs). However here's the way Kubik, Steiner, McCallum etc do it..... Say you can do 300lbs for 5 reps in the squat. Set 1 - you do 200lbs for 5 reps - this is a warmup. Rest a few mins. Set 2 - do 250lbs for 5. Don't be tempted to do more reps, even if you can. Set 3 - 300lbs for 5. Again, don't do more even if you can. Set 4 - 300lbs for 5 reps. Again, don't do more even if you can. Set 5 - 300lbs for 5 again. If you manage to get 5 reps for ALL last 3 sets, add 5lbs to your next workout. That's the progression. When you can get 5 reps in the last 3 sets with 305lbs, you add more weight. If you can only get, say, 5 then 4 then 3 reps in your final sets, then stick with the weight until you get 5 reps in every set. Does that make sense? BTW, try and rope a gym instructor to spot for you (that's what they are paid for), rather than use machines. Smith machines won't give much carry-over strength. See Bill Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive for a good discussion about the merits of machines versus Free Weights. *Quote:* Trying to distill down what you guys have said, most of you seem to agree that I should be moving from 4 sets of 8 reps to more sets and fewer reps of higher weights, with more rest between sets and a real attempt to increase the weight I'm lifting each session. Does that sound about right? Depends if your 4 sets include warmup sets. 2 hard "working sets" should be enough for any exercise for the type of gains you are looking for. (IMO). Yes, attempt to increase the weight, but don't get hung up or discouraged if you fail to increase each session. Good luck and have fun. - and there's loads of good books on weight training, look around.

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Weight train to fail on each set?

Weight train to fail on each set?

Quick Reply