ok zippy we'll agree to disagree but i'll go with the training methods of every champion of worthwhile combat arts such as boxing, thai boxing and vale tudo.
good wing chun v's wrestling thread...
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 John Kavanagh |
Re: Chi Sao | ||
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Posts: 1053 (08/30/03 09:53:56) |
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zippy |
Re: Chi Sao | ||
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Posts: 374 (08/30/03 10:03:56) |
Fair enough and for the record I respect your opinion and good luck with your training.
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Gone Tuff |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 54 (08/30/03 11:00:44) |
Magic Manoova
"I header from a good friend of his missus that he took a pasting from some "short little guy" in Manchester, so his boys tried to jump in and got guns pulled on them, leading to a hasty retreat down the M1." Thats the problem with third hand information, its very often wrong, may be a case of Chinese whispers, I was there, Julie defiantly wasn't. Derek travelled up to fight Bob Sykes on Bobs home patch, Bob was wearing a groin guard under his clothing, and there was also a suggestion that Bob had taken some form of performance enhancer. Bob was taking a pasting (I got photo's of the fight) when Bobs brother called to "get the shooters", whatever that meant, as we didnt' actually see any fire arms. Derek obviously felt responsible for the safety of his students that had travelled with him and offered Bob a draw, which Bob took gratefully. Met Simon James 7 odd years ago and demonstrated that his "goat milking" stance could not prevent my traditional jujutsu "copying-Royce Gracie-in-UFC2" take down. Simon is irrelevant; he is defiantly not comparable to Derek Jones. Simon is a product of his own approach to his training, as we all are. |
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SBGI |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 67 (08/30/03 16:13:31) |
"Bob was wearing a groin guard under his clothing, and there was also a suggestion that Bob had taken some form of performance enhancer."
LMAO Bob is the man! If you see Bob, buy Bob a drink. He taught me to retire. -Matt |
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Magic Manoova |
Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 267 (08/31/03 06:10:30) |
On the other side of the fence...
talking of wing chuns different (ineffective) delivery system Could you guys remind me what the SB part of SBGI stands for? Hmmm. Don't see much of that in a a thai/kali/boxing gym. 
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SBGI |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 67 (08/31/03 11:39:40) |
Hello MM,
Regards. . ."talking of wing chuns different (ineffective) delivery system Could you guys remind me what the SB part of SBGI stands for? Hmmm. Don't see much of that in a a thai/kali/boxing gym." Good question. Actualy what we use is called a 'boxing blast'. It has been the only blast I have taught for the last six Years. It comes from western boxing, and has been around for a very long time. It can be seen on video by some of our athletes, and of course Vitor Belfort. Who has used it beautifuly many times. A very effective technique no doubt. It is a product of the western boxing delivery system, and is the only version of the blast we teach anymore due to the fact that it is far more powerfull, accurate, and effective, when compared to it's vertical fist counter-part. On an interesting side note I think most modern evidence points to the fact that 'wing chun' is actually just a version of western boxing that the chinese learned from British sailors, and later screwed up with forms, and nonsense. But, hey, if you still want to believe the 'blind nun' story, no worries. I have some real estate I would love to sell you if that is the case. Cheers! -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com |
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John Kavanagh |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 1053 (08/31/03 11:41:10) |
Quote: which SBGI instructor showed you the straight blast we do? it's really just a series of straight crosses you'd see in any boxing/thai delivery system. dont confuse it with what you think it is. Quote: please dont include kali with those two  bob sykes from MAI?? 
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Gone Tuff |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 54 (08/31/03 12:09:04) |
Hi,
>It can be seen on video by some of our athletes, and of course Victor Belfort. Who has used it beautifuly many times. A very effective technique no doubt. It is a product of the western boxing delivery system, and is the only version of the blast we teach anymore due to the fact that it is far more powerfull, accurate, and effective, when compared to it's vertical fist counter-part.(I've seen the Victor Belfort application) is it fundamentally all in the leverage and chasing the centre of gravity or is there more to the structure than that? John Kavanagh mentioned that it is more or less a series of crosses, which Matt mentions it is very accurate, how is the accuracy trained for with the series of cross punches? Yes That Bob Sykes |
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SBGI |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 67 (08/31/03 12:55:40) |
GT the accuracy comes from what we call an index point. That is a specific spot that punches always fire from, and return to. When you fire from the same spot you tend to land in the same spot. If you watch Vitor carefully you will see he always punches from his chin, and has a very tight structure.
The punches are thrown from a cross step, so each punch becomes a cross. In otherwords as you step forward with your right leg you hit with your left, and vice versa. We usually teach to throw in 3's, and follow with a knee to the face, elbow, Thai kick, etc. cheers -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com |
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Dr Octagon UK |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 1379 (08/31/03 13:26:53) |
its always great fun playing with the straight blast, stick a headguard with face mask on and blast away
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"I didn't aspire to be a good sport- 'champion' was good enough for me". Fred Perry |
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Gone Tuff |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 54 (08/31/03 13:45:41) |
SBGI
IS your the index point always the chin? I use a similar principle, but it's relative to elbows returning to what I call the initiation point. Can you percieve any disadvantage with using the elbow as the point of reference. Also my question about power generation, is it fundamentally all in the leverage and chasing the centre of gravity or is there more to the structure than that? Cheers Gone Tuff |
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SBGI |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 67 (08/31/03 14:43:27) |
GT, I let the athlete pick the index point, most use the chni or cheekbones.
Regards the power, the power comes from body mechanics, and mass + velocity, as all boxing does. You would have to try it a few times and then spar it to feel the differences. cheers -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com |
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Gone Tuff |
Re: Delivery system eh? | ||
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Posts: 54 (09/01/03 03:11:42) |
SBGI
I'll check it out. My concern at this point would be the loss of control of my balance with the series of crosses, because of the elbow out positioning It seems having looked at Victor Belforts application I would need to gain power by leaning in to create leverage, and also chase my centre of gravity, which is very powerful but possibly leads to a possible loss of control of balance, mind you it doesnt seem to affect him to badly, but he does seem to fall over his opponents when they hit the deck because of his momentum. With an elbows in approach to punching, i.e. old school boxing style, where the elbow drives the punch out, and the power comes from, mass X velocity applied at lock out distance, so the mass can attain maximum velocity, which is why control of my balance is an issue for me at the moment, Regards Gone Tuff |
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killing joke |
Re: reinventing the wheel | ||
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Posts: 361 (09/01/03 03:31:28) |
Quote: the thing is that if the ingrediants are not available then you have to change the mix a bit. I can get better newaza than bjj in my area. Plus my instructors do include bjj influence but teach more varied influences. so the athlete has to be able to use what is available to them. 'systems are movements and movements kill' is a lyric from a song and is appropraite. I know what you are saying but the delivery, as its text on a forum, perhaps suggests that there is only one truth. If we can get past that then we would have shorter threads ; ) re the straight blast, its functional in the right place. i would use it in the mount or knee mount as part of my arsenal. Ive seen the likes of Rick Young, erik paulson and marc mcfann clearly show its effectiveness in the right moment. what i really learnt this weekend, having attended a seminar with Ajarn Siruchai Sirusute, is that you can learn so much from a class instructor in a short period of time but the vast majority of martial artists are learning for two years and repeating the same stuff for the next twenty. in that i agree with John and Matt in the spirit of what they say, i find myself being pedantic in the way they they maybe refer to certain things, which i understand can get messed up by cultural diversity. (i say this in the spirtit of Jiddus quote on the front page of the website) |
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ronro |
Re: reinventing the wheel | ||
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Posts: 4 (09/01/03 04:58:53) |
There is nothing wrong with using the delivery system found in any traditional art (wing chun, kali, whatever) as long as you pressure test it to make sure that what you have really works. Thats the key. There is no need to be so prescriptive as to say it MUST be thai and Greco Roman for the clinch, when eg judo might be better for some. Same goes for wing chun vs boxing for hand skills. Its all good so long as you pressure test it thoroughly.
It MAY be that some trad arts just don't work. If thats true you will know about it when you test. If a person can get something to work for them, whats so wrong about that? |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 0 (09/01/03 07:33:06) |
wing chun sucks so does j.k.d to be any good at combat uz have to cross train!!!!!
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zippy |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 374 (09/01/03 08:17:29) |
I thought JKD practitioners did cross train?
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SBGI |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 67 (09/01/03 12:57:21) |
"I can get better newaza than bjj in my area. Plus my instructors do include bjj influence but teach more varied influences.'
You misuderstand the term 'delievery system'. If the ne-waze you are learning is functional, and they 'roll', then I pormise you it is the same deliverey system. Remember that Judo and Jits have the same roots. This is why I say 'delivery system'. Same holds true for modern Shooto, which on the mat is simply no-gi BJJ. Call it what you like, but the deliverey system is the same. The word is never the thing itself. "re the straight blast, its functional in the right place. i would use it in the mount or knee mount as part of my arsenal." That would be a very bad idea. Having engaged in, and watched thousands of VT sparring matches in the Gym I can tell you without doubt that striking from those positions requires balance and proper technique if the person on bottom is still game at all, and knows anything about escapes. Get yourself into a good MMA Gym or proper BJJ school that has some VT experience, and ask them how they strike from there. They will have a lot of things born of experience that I am sure will help you. cheers! -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com |
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killing joke |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 361 (09/01/03 13:45:09) |
'delivery system'
accepted. re the straight blast: afraid ill agree to disagree. Theres always a time and a place. The first effective straight blast i ever saw came from a street fighter with no martial arts experience. bizarre. ill add no more to what has been a great thread! Thanks to all. ill certainly try and get to either Matt or Johns events in the future. pat |
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SBGI |
Re: good wing chun v's wrestling thread... | ||
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Posts: 67 (09/01/03 13:58:36) |
Look forward to meeting you pat.
cheers -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com |
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